For decades, researchers and psychologists have recognized that the levels of “insistence and persistence” of gender dysphoria in children are important factors to measure. These experts have identified what most wise people instinctively know: there is a difference between a child’s temporary (and entirely appropriate) self-identification as a cat or Batman, and an extended commitment to a belief, identity, or activity, such as a child who practices basketball alone everyday past dusk for years.
My daughter has done her coming out bit, though I noticed that one of her closest friends still calls her by her birth name. Also, while I thought she had desisted, during this period of "silence," she had gone deeper into the ideology. The school here accepted it wholly without informing us, and the school counselor sent her to the local LGBTQ shelter, where she was further brainwashed and love-bombed.
The man there, an adult who should know better, but is paid by the city to run the place, obviously gave her a "test" at some time that suggested she was close to suicide, the usual hook to turn us into glitter parents. It didn't, because I saw the test and I pointed out to him that had I done that test between the ages of 13 and 20, I, too, would have been close to suicide. It was some infantile thing full of very crude suggestions.
I actually went there to talk to him (my daughter wanted me to), and what I discovered was a fellow trained in manipulative techniques, very basic ones but they were in place, who obviously wanted to paint us parents in the blackest light possible so that our daughter would have to fall upon the shelter for "shelter".... If that wasn't a form of grooming, I don't know what is. After nearly 2 hours, he realized he'd hit upon a a parent who was not going to let himself be pushed around by some 4th-rate culty behavior.... At one point he said that my way of thinking would suggest that I'd prefer if my kid committed suicide. ...
I wrote him an "aide-mémoire" that got him really excited, he then shared it and parts of our conversation (selectively) to other adults at the center (probably trying to pry my daughter away by law, because the government here fell for that crap, hook, line, and sinker). So I turned my correspondence with him over to my daughter, who was not happy, but transparency is key. She knows I will fight for her sanity, for her well-being. My daughter is clearly on the autism spectrum, btw, she is highly intelligent, and that could be the problem. She starts toying with ideas that rapidly become obsession.
Anyway.... The struggle goes on. I can't say I am not deeply fearful of what might happen. I am overworked (underpaid as well), but I may see some time coming where I interview surgeons about the insane idea of mutilating the bodies of healthy kids based on some postmodern claptrap. My doctor is a very open person, he'll get me the interviewees. And at some point I am going to go to the school counselor and have a gentle conversation. Dad is also autistic, apparently, and when I bite, you have to kill me to open my jaws.
Thank you for this. As the parent of a 22 year of trans-identifying, medicalized daughter, I'd like to suggest some further refinement, if only to assuage my rising level of panic. The highest stage here lumps persons who have started cross-sex hormones with those who have had double mastectomies, hysterectomies and legal name changes - all the later are defcon 5 IMHO. I'd like to hope that my daughter can go off the T and have a good chance of getting her life back. That becomes increasing difficult with surgeries and change of legal status. So maybe we need 3 more stages - drugs, surgery, legal. Again, this may only make me feel better but I'll take it.
I wonder how helpful this is. It pretends that this is unidirectional when many of us parents have seen kids move back and forth between different stages. As someone with cancer diagnoses in their immediate family, I both appreciate and dislike The metaphor of illness and also that stage four is somehow terminal. Where do the disasters and detransitioners go? I suggest a circle! Or perhaps a spiral.
We have had a couple times that we saw evidence that our daughter was desisting only to have her double down harder when stress happened in her life. I’ve noticed that she uses the transmovement to help her cope with anxiety. I believe her to be an undiagnosed high functioning autistic girl. As far as I can get the therapist to look is a test for ADD which the results of the test concluded her to be. I think that is a misdiagnosis though. I wish that therapists really understood or studied other research besides WPATH which is highly flawed. The fact they don’t recognize ROGD and want to push the trans ideology is frustrating
Are you having difficulty getting her evaluated for autism? I was diagnosed as an adult. Funny thing I was laying in bed this morning wondering if there is actually a whole subset of autism that is effectively late onset. Looking back I had small signs all along but I don't think an evaluation would have caught it. I really went off the rails in 7th grade and it was all explained as depression, anxiety, etc. There are so many overlapping and otherwise explained symptoms. Women and girls tend to be missed diagnostically but it's weird, I don't think I could have been diagnosed any sooner than I was. It didn't really affect me until I was older.
Now, the really lousy part to all this is the gender identity movement means with "gender" replacing "sex" on so many forms, we are losing stasticial data when it comes to medical, educational, psychological things. Who do you think is most going to pay the price? Natal females.
👍 I do know that girls are often misdiagnosed because they can mimic social cues better than autistic boys. However looking back and even with what she is dealing with now, I can see she fits almost every co-morbidity for autism. I do think that we still don’t know as much about the condition as we need to, especially that Autistic girls tend to struggle with gender dysphoria. I wish I could talk to her about it but the internet has made her believe that the only solution to her discomfort is because she “is trans” where transitioning is the only solution. I am working right now to just help the intense anxiety that she feels with teaching her skills. She is in horse-riding lessons (she has always LOVED horses) which I think is indirectly helping her in a number of ways. I agree that because the medical field has allowed the movement to push any gender confusion with a person needing to transition it will be natal females who pay the price.
Donna M., have you spoken to Lisa Littman? Having run two studies, she's the best expert we have on ROGD. Perhaps you two could collaborate on a third.
In reference to opposite sex clothing, I would suggest that clothing inherently is not sex-based. Women wear trousers and T-shirts and men do wear skirts or dresses. In the descriptors, it may be helpful to qualify the statements with the term “clothes which are considered traditionally to be masculine or feminine,” or something like that. I never consider my clothes to be such but that, again, is the problem with gender. Toys and clothes and behaviors are only considered “masculine” or “feminine” because of training in a patriarchal society, not because that are innately intended for males or females. We are human first and then male or female and then we decide on the socially constructed multiple gender expressions available to us. Once you have decided to freely express yourself in some fashion, there is no need to think of yourself as masculine or feminine, you are simply you and allowing your own personality to be expressed through dress or behavior, etc.
I am late in replying but I think it's important to note that the patriarchy is the air we breathe in that you don't have to pay much attention to it to be subject to its effects. This is why I always tie back everything that's wrong in our society with the patriarchy. It's what objectifies women and other disenfranchised groups, it's what encourages profit over people politics. It's what keeps the greedy, power mongering politicians in power. It is what keeps a percentage of women supporting conservative right white heterosexual christian males in power via a stockholm syndrome effect mostly because they are afraid of losing proxy money and power of their husbands if they object in any way.
So, no, not silly. Actually quite important to acknowledge. If you don't acknowledge there is poison in the air you breathe, you'll never be free of it.
That is a whole lot of absurdity. 🤣 Women objectify women just as much as anyone else. Women place higher standards upon other women than men do. This isn't the 1950s. The "muh patriarchy" and "muh toxic masculinity" is nonsense. Toxic feminism is much more of a problem today than tocic masculinity. Toxic feminism has feminized society and turned it into what it is today. The blame for this gender BS can largely be placed toxic feminism and radical feminism.
Yes, women and men are susceptible to patriarchal training. That's the point. We are all subject to the eons long training of living in societies where men are in control and women are second class citizens. What is toxic feminism? Does it refer to people calling themselves "feminists" who support the trans ideology? Radical feminists are fighting *against* the Trans Rights Activists in order to uphold civil and human rights for women and girls and urge boys to be raised to respect women and girls. The blame for TRAs gender bs can be laid squarely at the feet of men, it being a men's rights activist group. So, getting the terms and definitions straight would be a start for continuing this conversation. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.
Toxic feminists are people who go on about "muh patriarchy" in 2022. Especially the radical ones.
Toxic feminists are people who say women are 2nd class citizens and act as if we are victims.
Toxic feminism is what started all this through the feminization of society. That over feminization is why so many, especially women, accept and push the T ppl nonsense. Did they choose it? No. It was a side effect of their push on society and their toxicness. There are now men in women sports. Gee, I wonder why. There's only been decades of women trying to invade mens spaces while shouting "muh patriarchy." They just reversed it. This was always going to be the end result. A side effect.
Toxic feminism is what created all this through starting an epidemic of self hatred among boys/men.
Yea, RadFems ar fighting against what they created through their hatred and feminization of society and boys/men.
In the purest sense, you are absolutely correct. Clothes are just fabrics that you put on your body. The model you propose is an idealized one, and it will be nice if we one day lived in such a world. And it's worth pointing it out.
But at the present time, men do not wear skirts and dresses on the street unless they're trying to pass as women or are trans-identified. You'll never see male attorneys, politicians, reporters, teachers, etc. wearing a dress or a skirt to work. Women have more leeway, obviously, but there is still the reality, from a fashion perspective, that certain types of pants, shirts, shoes, accessories and haircuts, signal masculine and others feminine.
My point, I guess, is that despite how we'd like the world to be, clothes remain signifiers, especially for this brainwashed generation of kids who can't imagine a world in which ones biological sex is a given and everything else is up for grabs. It's difficult for a young person to put on whatever the heck they like on a given day without being labeled as something or being treated in a certain way based on their perceived "gender." (How they're perceived is a big deal for them.)
Interestingly, the "way out" for young people who believe in the ideology but dislike the rigidity that identifying with a gender implies, is to call themselves non-binary and literally maintain two wardrobes.
Part of my point was everything you said. That being said, in the context of this piece alone, lies the opportunity to stop toeing the patriarchal line of masculine and feminine in things and behavior which is at the foundation of young people (and their parents) deciding that they must be trans and need to have medical intervention. No time like the present to stop enabling the patriarchy.
My daughter has done her coming out bit, though I noticed that one of her closest friends still calls her by her birth name. Also, while I thought she had desisted, during this period of "silence," she had gone deeper into the ideology. The school here accepted it wholly without informing us, and the school counselor sent her to the local LGBTQ shelter, where she was further brainwashed and love-bombed.
The man there, an adult who should know better, but is paid by the city to run the place, obviously gave her a "test" at some time that suggested she was close to suicide, the usual hook to turn us into glitter parents. It didn't, because I saw the test and I pointed out to him that had I done that test between the ages of 13 and 20, I, too, would have been close to suicide. It was some infantile thing full of very crude suggestions.
I actually went there to talk to him (my daughter wanted me to), and what I discovered was a fellow trained in manipulative techniques, very basic ones but they were in place, who obviously wanted to paint us parents in the blackest light possible so that our daughter would have to fall upon the shelter for "shelter".... If that wasn't a form of grooming, I don't know what is. After nearly 2 hours, he realized he'd hit upon a a parent who was not going to let himself be pushed around by some 4th-rate culty behavior.... At one point he said that my way of thinking would suggest that I'd prefer if my kid committed suicide. ...
I wrote him an "aide-mémoire" that got him really excited, he then shared it and parts of our conversation (selectively) to other adults at the center (probably trying to pry my daughter away by law, because the government here fell for that crap, hook, line, and sinker). So I turned my correspondence with him over to my daughter, who was not happy, but transparency is key. She knows I will fight for her sanity, for her well-being. My daughter is clearly on the autism spectrum, btw, she is highly intelligent, and that could be the problem. She starts toying with ideas that rapidly become obsession.
Anyway.... The struggle goes on. I can't say I am not deeply fearful of what might happen. I am overworked (underpaid as well), but I may see some time coming where I interview surgeons about the insane idea of mutilating the bodies of healthy kids based on some postmodern claptrap. My doctor is a very open person, he'll get me the interviewees. And at some point I am going to go to the school counselor and have a gentle conversation. Dad is also autistic, apparently, and when I bite, you have to kill me to open my jaws.
This is a good start.
Thank you for this. As the parent of a 22 year of trans-identifying, medicalized daughter, I'd like to suggest some further refinement, if only to assuage my rising level of panic. The highest stage here lumps persons who have started cross-sex hormones with those who have had double mastectomies, hysterectomies and legal name changes - all the later are defcon 5 IMHO. I'd like to hope that my daughter can go off the T and have a good chance of getting her life back. That becomes increasing difficult with surgeries and change of legal status. So maybe we need 3 more stages - drugs, surgery, legal. Again, this may only make me feel better but I'll take it.
Very insightful
I wonder how helpful this is. It pretends that this is unidirectional when many of us parents have seen kids move back and forth between different stages. As someone with cancer diagnoses in their immediate family, I both appreciate and dislike The metaphor of illness and also that stage four is somehow terminal. Where do the disasters and detransitioners go? I suggest a circle! Or perhaps a spiral.
desisters, not disasters!
We have had a couple times that we saw evidence that our daughter was desisting only to have her double down harder when stress happened in her life. I’ve noticed that she uses the transmovement to help her cope with anxiety. I believe her to be an undiagnosed high functioning autistic girl. As far as I can get the therapist to look is a test for ADD which the results of the test concluded her to be. I think that is a misdiagnosis though. I wish that therapists really understood or studied other research besides WPATH which is highly flawed. The fact they don’t recognize ROGD and want to push the trans ideology is frustrating
Are you having difficulty getting her evaluated for autism? I was diagnosed as an adult. Funny thing I was laying in bed this morning wondering if there is actually a whole subset of autism that is effectively late onset. Looking back I had small signs all along but I don't think an evaluation would have caught it. I really went off the rails in 7th grade and it was all explained as depression, anxiety, etc. There are so many overlapping and otherwise explained symptoms. Women and girls tend to be missed diagnostically but it's weird, I don't think I could have been diagnosed any sooner than I was. It didn't really affect me until I was older.
Now, the really lousy part to all this is the gender identity movement means with "gender" replacing "sex" on so many forms, we are losing stasticial data when it comes to medical, educational, psychological things. Who do you think is most going to pay the price? Natal females.
👍 I do know that girls are often misdiagnosed because they can mimic social cues better than autistic boys. However looking back and even with what she is dealing with now, I can see she fits almost every co-morbidity for autism. I do think that we still don’t know as much about the condition as we need to, especially that Autistic girls tend to struggle with gender dysphoria. I wish I could talk to her about it but the internet has made her believe that the only solution to her discomfort is because she “is trans” where transitioning is the only solution. I am working right now to just help the intense anxiety that she feels with teaching her skills. She is in horse-riding lessons (she has always LOVED horses) which I think is indirectly helping her in a number of ways. I agree that because the medical field has allowed the movement to push any gender confusion with a person needing to transition it will be natal females who pay the price.
The Stages… what an incredibly helpful barometer!
Donna M., have you spoken to Lisa Littman? Having run two studies, she's the best expert we have on ROGD. Perhaps you two could collaborate on a third.
Brilliant idea
In reference to opposite sex clothing, I would suggest that clothing inherently is not sex-based. Women wear trousers and T-shirts and men do wear skirts or dresses. In the descriptors, it may be helpful to qualify the statements with the term “clothes which are considered traditionally to be masculine or feminine,” or something like that. I never consider my clothes to be such but that, again, is the problem with gender. Toys and clothes and behaviors are only considered “masculine” or “feminine” because of training in a patriarchal society, not because that are innately intended for males or females. We are human first and then male or female and then we decide on the socially constructed multiple gender expressions available to us. Once you have decided to freely express yourself in some fashion, there is no need to think of yourself as masculine or feminine, you are simply you and allowing your own personality to be expressed through dress or behavior, etc.
While you are technically correct, placing it on "muh patriarchy" is silly.
I am late in replying but I think it's important to note that the patriarchy is the air we breathe in that you don't have to pay much attention to it to be subject to its effects. This is why I always tie back everything that's wrong in our society with the patriarchy. It's what objectifies women and other disenfranchised groups, it's what encourages profit over people politics. It's what keeps the greedy, power mongering politicians in power. It is what keeps a percentage of women supporting conservative right white heterosexual christian males in power via a stockholm syndrome effect mostly because they are afraid of losing proxy money and power of their husbands if they object in any way.
So, no, not silly. Actually quite important to acknowledge. If you don't acknowledge there is poison in the air you breathe, you'll never be free of it.
That is a whole lot of absurdity. 🤣 Women objectify women just as much as anyone else. Women place higher standards upon other women than men do. This isn't the 1950s. The "muh patriarchy" and "muh toxic masculinity" is nonsense. Toxic feminism is much more of a problem today than tocic masculinity. Toxic feminism has feminized society and turned it into what it is today. The blame for this gender BS can largely be placed toxic feminism and radical feminism.
Yes, women and men are susceptible to patriarchal training. That's the point. We are all subject to the eons long training of living in societies where men are in control and women are second class citizens. What is toxic feminism? Does it refer to people calling themselves "feminists" who support the trans ideology? Radical feminists are fighting *against* the Trans Rights Activists in order to uphold civil and human rights for women and girls and urge boys to be raised to respect women and girls. The blame for TRAs gender bs can be laid squarely at the feet of men, it being a men's rights activist group. So, getting the terms and definitions straight would be a start for continuing this conversation. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.
Toxic feminists are people who go on about "muh patriarchy" in 2022. Especially the radical ones.
Toxic feminists are people who say women are 2nd class citizens and act as if we are victims.
Toxic feminism is what started all this through the feminization of society. That over feminization is why so many, especially women, accept and push the T ppl nonsense. Did they choose it? No. It was a side effect of their push on society and their toxicness. There are now men in women sports. Gee, I wonder why. There's only been decades of women trying to invade mens spaces while shouting "muh patriarchy." They just reversed it. This was always going to be the end result. A side effect.
Toxic feminism is what created all this through starting an epidemic of self hatred among boys/men.
Yea, RadFems ar fighting against what they created through their hatred and feminization of society and boys/men.
In the purest sense, you are absolutely correct. Clothes are just fabrics that you put on your body. The model you propose is an idealized one, and it will be nice if we one day lived in such a world. And it's worth pointing it out.
But at the present time, men do not wear skirts and dresses on the street unless they're trying to pass as women or are trans-identified. You'll never see male attorneys, politicians, reporters, teachers, etc. wearing a dress or a skirt to work. Women have more leeway, obviously, but there is still the reality, from a fashion perspective, that certain types of pants, shirts, shoes, accessories and haircuts, signal masculine and others feminine.
My point, I guess, is that despite how we'd like the world to be, clothes remain signifiers, especially for this brainwashed generation of kids who can't imagine a world in which ones biological sex is a given and everything else is up for grabs. It's difficult for a young person to put on whatever the heck they like on a given day without being labeled as something or being treated in a certain way based on their perceived "gender." (How they're perceived is a big deal for them.)
Interestingly, the "way out" for young people who believe in the ideology but dislike the rigidity that identifying with a gender implies, is to call themselves non-binary and literally maintain two wardrobes.
Part of my point was everything you said. That being said, in the context of this piece alone, lies the opportunity to stop toeing the patriarchal line of masculine and feminine in things and behavior which is at the foundation of young people (and their parents) deciding that they must be trans and need to have medical intervention. No time like the present to stop enabling the patriarchy.
I agree.
Or "Agender" - the "A" in LGBTADQ++ posted by Person in a previous article. "D" is for desister in this more inclusive list.