It was hard to miss, because it was right in our faces...the bullying, the hare-brained demand that we accept males in our midst, not only as women, but as LESBIANS. But even then, I was in the minority. A lot of womem felt bad, because we'd been so oppressed ourselves that we wanted to be kind. A lot of us thought, what's the big deal? How many of them could there be? LOL. Not.
It was hard to miss, because it was right in our faces...the bullying, the hare-brained demand that we accept males in our midst, not only as women, but as LESBIANS. But even then, I was in the minority. A lot of womem felt bad, because we'd been so oppressed ourselves that we wanted to be kind. A lot of us thought, what's the big deal? How many of them could there be? LOL. Not.
Beeswax, Thanks for that. I've long wondered how lesbians – who are like every minority and NOT a monolith – talked about this issue among themselves; and how "acceptance" happened.
And LidaH and Beeswax, (Again, discussing and not attacking) I diverge from the concepts of "mainstream misogyny" and "patriarchy" in 2022. I do agree with you 100%, LidaH, that our socialization has been weaponized against us; but I think men and women alike were gaslit, hookwinked, indoctrinated, and manipulated by huge forces (UN, BigPharma) and a small number of sociopathic male predators.
The lesbian mentality around trans has been extremely fraught from the beginning, and what I described was just one permutation. As time went by and queer theory became entrenched in the universities, the next generation of young lesbians became indoctrinated in "gender" and they were encouraged to transition. Trans became the next cool thing. This was in the early 90s. I recall a brilliant lesbian feminist linguistics professor named Julia Penelope speaking at a lesbian festival in around 1993. She had just returned from an academic conference and her first words were: "well, they want to disappear the lesbians." And they have largely succeeded.
Once lesbians started to transition, other lesbians had a conundrum. Would we support our friends and lovers, present and former, or would we turn their backs on women who were apparently onto something new and cutting edge? For the most part, lesbians bent over backwards to support their friends. I recall a gay parade where a shirtless, trans-identified woman was showing off her mastectomy scars, being carried on the shoulders of her lesbian friends like a hero returning from the war. Of course, in order to support your sisters when they mutilated their bodies, you had to accept the justification for such a thing, even though it made little logical sense and certainly no scientific sense. We had all experienced homophobia and many of us were naturally over on the butch end. Many women older than myself had been passing as men since the 1950s and 60s. But this didn't mean they were literally men! That part of the narrative was added on, but in order to love our friends, we were required to affirm. And I'd be remiss if I didn't also state that some women were so masculine naturally that transitioning for them was a relief and they didn't regret it.
There's a lot more to say. Please just know that Germaine Greer was not even close to being the only intellectual in those days who was pushing back. Know, for instance, the names of writers Janice Raymond and Sheila Jeffreys, both still with us, as well as the aforementioned, late Julia Penelope. And many more.
One question: So some very-masculine women transitioned and genuinely didn't regret it? The pharma – as all pharma does – causes serious, chronic disease of all kinds. Do you have the impression that the benefits of passing as men outweigh the toxic effects of lifelong hormones for them? I know you're not in their heads, but you might have gleaned their opinions.
But at least they did it as fully informed ADULTS. (Had to ask: I'm particularly anti-pharma.)
I agree, cross-sex hormones are terrible for people, but some people are so gender dysphoric that they prefer to risk the side effects. This is the point of view of, for instance, Aaron Kimberly, the founder and exec. director of the Gender Dysphoria Alliance, and Buck Angel, one of the first FTM transitioners. Then there are lesbians like Zander Keig, who simply got sick and tired of the constant harassment and homophobia because of her appearance. None of these women believe that they have literally changed their sex and they have no problem saying so. They call themselves trans men, but they know they are biological females.
You hit the nail on the head: once people are adults they can do what they want with their bodies. I said I was anti-trans in another post, but that’s not entirely true. I’m anti-trans ideology, which is based on pseudoscience, bullshit, misogyny and homophobia. I’m anti-transitioning of children or even discussing it in the K-12 environment. And of course I’m anti the incursion of males into women’s spaces of any kind.
Yes, we have of course had our socialisation as women shamelessly weaponized against us. Many people apparently can't even see it, they're so innured to the misogyny of the mainstream.
It was hard to miss, because it was right in our faces...the bullying, the hare-brained demand that we accept males in our midst, not only as women, but as LESBIANS. But even then, I was in the minority. A lot of womem felt bad, because we'd been so oppressed ourselves that we wanted to be kind. A lot of us thought, what's the big deal? How many of them could there be? LOL. Not.
Beeswax, Thanks for that. I've long wondered how lesbians – who are like every minority and NOT a monolith – talked about this issue among themselves; and how "acceptance" happened.
And LidaH and Beeswax, (Again, discussing and not attacking) I diverge from the concepts of "mainstream misogyny" and "patriarchy" in 2022. I do agree with you 100%, LidaH, that our socialization has been weaponized against us; but I think men and women alike were gaslit, hookwinked, indoctrinated, and manipulated by huge forces (UN, BigPharma) and a small number of sociopathic male predators.
The lesbian mentality around trans has been extremely fraught from the beginning, and what I described was just one permutation. As time went by and queer theory became entrenched in the universities, the next generation of young lesbians became indoctrinated in "gender" and they were encouraged to transition. Trans became the next cool thing. This was in the early 90s. I recall a brilliant lesbian feminist linguistics professor named Julia Penelope speaking at a lesbian festival in around 1993. She had just returned from an academic conference and her first words were: "well, they want to disappear the lesbians." And they have largely succeeded.
Once lesbians started to transition, other lesbians had a conundrum. Would we support our friends and lovers, present and former, or would we turn their backs on women who were apparently onto something new and cutting edge? For the most part, lesbians bent over backwards to support their friends. I recall a gay parade where a shirtless, trans-identified woman was showing off her mastectomy scars, being carried on the shoulders of her lesbian friends like a hero returning from the war. Of course, in order to support your sisters when they mutilated their bodies, you had to accept the justification for such a thing, even though it made little logical sense and certainly no scientific sense. We had all experienced homophobia and many of us were naturally over on the butch end. Many women older than myself had been passing as men since the 1950s and 60s. But this didn't mean they were literally men! That part of the narrative was added on, but in order to love our friends, we were required to affirm. And I'd be remiss if I didn't also state that some women were so masculine naturally that transitioning for them was a relief and they didn't regret it.
There's a lot more to say. Please just know that Germaine Greer was not even close to being the only intellectual in those days who was pushing back. Know, for instance, the names of writers Janice Raymond and Sheila Jeffreys, both still with us, as well as the aforementioned, late Julia Penelope. And many more.
Huge topic. Thanks for engaging.
One question: So some very-masculine women transitioned and genuinely didn't regret it? The pharma – as all pharma does – causes serious, chronic disease of all kinds. Do you have the impression that the benefits of passing as men outweigh the toxic effects of lifelong hormones for them? I know you're not in their heads, but you might have gleaned their opinions.
But at least they did it as fully informed ADULTS. (Had to ask: I'm particularly anti-pharma.)
I agree, cross-sex hormones are terrible for people, but some people are so gender dysphoric that they prefer to risk the side effects. This is the point of view of, for instance, Aaron Kimberly, the founder and exec. director of the Gender Dysphoria Alliance, and Buck Angel, one of the first FTM transitioners. Then there are lesbians like Zander Keig, who simply got sick and tired of the constant harassment and homophobia because of her appearance. None of these women believe that they have literally changed their sex and they have no problem saying so. They call themselves trans men, but they know they are biological females.
You hit the nail on the head: once people are adults they can do what they want with their bodies. I said I was anti-trans in another post, but that’s not entirely true. I’m anti-trans ideology, which is based on pseudoscience, bullshit, misogyny and homophobia. I’m anti-transitioning of children or even discussing it in the K-12 environment. And of course I’m anti the incursion of males into women’s spaces of any kind.
100% THX. Such huge issues.
Yes, we have of course had our socialisation as women shamelessly weaponized against us. Many people apparently can't even see it, they're so innured to the misogyny of the mainstream.