I recently saw the Oscar-winning film “Women Talking,” by critically acclaimed Canadian director Sarah Polley, based on a novel by Mirian Toews. (NOTE: this review contains major spoilers.) The Toews novel, which I have not read, is itself loosely based on
I feel like this movie was better for fans of fhe author, I found it so boring. I kept hoping they’d leave the barn and turned it off half way thru. Maybe I was missing something but was expecting more for a big awards winner.
As someone who experienced something similar to Melvin, and after healing felt happy and safe in my body I am so happy I had one true friend to question the gender cult shit. I was 21-23 and had older ppl convincing me the reason I felt out of my body was because I was “a man” so far as to (I am large breasted) encourage me to seek too surgery.
I wish people got help, because the DSM before was right- it is a mental illness/symptom.
I'm late to this party and haven't read the many, many comments on this thread, but I have both watched the film and read the book. I thought the film was really powerful, but I did take note of the line "Melvin has always been a boy" spoken in the film. It seemed discordant in this story of women dealing with the trauma of the betrayal and drugging and rapes committed by some men in the community. It would make sense, that after a rape, a young woman in her trauma would distance herself from her sexuality. But saying Melvin was always a boy did nothing to support the story line. I was intrigued enough to read the book and discovered that "Melvin was always a boy" was not part of the story. I concluded that the line was added to the screen play to support the trans agenda. Too bad.
There is no such thing as Trans. You can not change your biological sex.
I think that those who say they are trans have either suffered from a horrible trauma and are creating a personality to get away from it, or they are rebelling against the status quo.
In the 60's, it was the hippie culture.
In the 70's, it was the rockers.
In the 80s, it was heavy metal grunge and goth.
In the 90s, it was the original LGB movement.
Now it's trans.
It's also Marxist propaganda and the pharma corps wanting to create lifelong customers.
I suspect my daughter was affected by multiple traumas in childhood: abandonment by birth mother, one year in an eastern European orphanage, adoption/change of country/change of language/change of caregivers, a disfiguring facial birthmark and unwanted pointing and comments from peers about it, sudden unexpected death of her beloved (adoptive) grandmother, moving with adoptive family from one country to another at age 10. Add to that the likelihood she is gay while also having absorbed homophobic attitudes, and then genderbread-type lessons in fancy international schools . . . She had it all, and sure enough at 15 she came out as "trans" together with her best girlfriend.
I’m sorry to hear that, it’s so disheartening when one feels fractured it’s easy for cult ideology in your developmental years to slide in and provide “comfort”
I'm late to the party and see that there has been a lot of heated discussion. My comment goes back to the film. As mother of a trans-identifying teenaged male, I found it really sad that the women deemed all post-pubescent boys irredeemable and wouldn't let them leave with the women. I think one reason why boys transition is because they've been hammered with the message that it's creepy to desire girls, and even creepier to act on their desires. They are afraid of rejection and ridicule and of being seen as a threat. My boy was gentle and sensitive. He couldn't compete with alpha males, so perhaps transition was the only path he saw for himself.
I feel the same way about my son. We live in Australia where it is a culture of footy (rugby) and a 'man-up' mentality. A sensitive, gentle, artistic boy has it tough here, even in this day and age. My son tried to fit into the culture but it wasn't him. I do wonder if becoming a female felt more normal for him because he could finally express himself in his gentle, soft, and empathic manner, without feeling like a 'failure' of a male. (All those traits are human traits, not solely female or male but sadly, our society deems them as feminine).
I'm sorry Dan. My comment was not intended for you as I know you weren't parading anything around nor was I accusing you of that. I wasn't suggesting anyone should take a hike. My suggestion of another forum was simply to say that the whole "same-sex as a paraphilia discussion" might better be taken up on another forum devoted to those topics. I understood this site as something quite different, though given much of the comments I've received, I'm beginning to wonder.
My early comment about vetting was very specifically about facts and not opinions. As a free speech advocate, I would never suggest that. However, I do believe stating opinions as fact only serves to muddy the waters and distract from the main event, the greater battle as you say. I certainly don't see you as an enemy and in truth, there are very few people in this world that fall into that category for me. Sorry for whatever confusion and misunderstanding my words provoked. :)
Using the real experiences of women in a particular community in South America as a platform for gender ideology agitprop: there is nothing at which trans activists and allies will balk. Sorry to learn Sarah Polley is so soulless.
Nowhere did I deny the correlation. I stated that a correlation is not the same thing as a cause.
If we were actually having a person to person conversation, I'd show why that particular study is not set up to prove what you suggest is a cause. That's all. I mention my experience because it has some relevance to the discussion, not as a oneupmanship ploy. Notice, in fact, I made no mention of degrees as academic qualifications are hardly my benchmark of truth or fact! WPATH and all the professionals signed up on their platform, provide ample evidence of that. Without being cynical, my motto since I was a child, has been "Question Everything!" and then dig deeper. Enjoy your day.
The strong correlation about childhood trauma and sexual abuse with gender dysphoria was known before the trans cult took over the science and ideology and dismissed after the cult started preying on children and vulnerable youths. @DETRANSAQUA is a victim of sexual abuse who, instead of psychological therapy she needed to overcome her trauma was indoctrinated into believing she must transitioning to a man. She and several other girls are now suing their doctors for the irreversible harm done to them. For the sake of others, they must win and ASAP.
The same is true for homosexuality. Homosexuality was redefined as a normal variation based on incidence rather than, in many cases, a reaction to trauma. If there was no trauma then there is no need for intervention, nothing to see here. In fact, a majority of women who identify as gay are victims of childhood sexual abuse. Gay men also often identify a sexual experience as a child with an adult male that set the course. It’s not coincidental that there are higher rates of Autism and mental health disorders among the ranks of younger transsexuals. Nor is it coincidental that adult males who become sexually aroused dressing in women’s clothes lead the charge of normalizing trans identities. These pervs are sacrificing the young & vulnerable to protect this normalizing of their (formerly considered) pathological sexual jollies.
Conversion therapy laws block any effort to unlock antecedents or trauma. There’s something terribly wrong with a system that forces the embrace of an identity borne of trauma, and then by law, force all counselors to go along.
No, the same is NOT true for homosexuality and I have no idea what you are basing this statement on. Your conflation of LGB (sexual orientations) with transgender ideology re: trauma and abuse is false and dangerous. Trauma does not cause actual sexual attraction, though it may indeed contribute to not wanting to have sex with a member of the opposite sex. There's a huge difference between causation and influence. If, in fact, a sexual abuse history caused women to be sexually attracted to other women, there would be a hell of a lot more lesbians in this world! I say this as a 72 year old lesbian who has been a feminist psychotherapist for 34 years working with trauma survivors of all sexual orientations and both sexes. I was also a grassroots activist in the early LGB struggles here in Nova Scotia and have never stopped studying the complex issues that impact our lives as humans in general, and individually. That is why I am now fighting to protect children and other vulnerable people from the dangerous contagion of transgender ideology and all that follows from it. Please reconsider your above opinion.
Yes, there is in fact some truth in what that commenter says.
It's not just direct sexual molestation, either. It's "normal" domestic child abuse, emotional and or physical. The correlation is real. It's not universal, but it's obvious, it's documented, and it's far higher than the background population.
I'm a gay man (and yes, this describes my experience, and yes, I believe it had some effect on my homosexuality) who can handle hearing this. Why can't you?
Josh, thank you for weighing in on this conversation. I respect your viewpoint and admire you for your candid substack commentary on Disaffected. I have been a paid subscriber for a year now and have learned so much.
Clearly you have not read the entirety of my comments. Nowhere have I said the "correlation" is not real. Having an effect on our lives is not the same thing as saying it is a cause of same-sex attraction. It didn't make you gay, but it certainly has a great effect on how you feel about yourself as a gay man in this culture. The experiences you describe, which are far more prevalent and "normalized" than most people realize, have a tremendous effect on most folks regardless of sexual orientation.
Please be careful about assuming anything about me. If I had trouble hearing this information, as you seem to think, I would never have spent much of my life as an out lesbian fighting for the rights you now have as a gay man. Nor would I have spent the past 35 years as a therapist working with LGB and straight people suffering the effects of intergenerational trauma and many other atrocities inflicted upon them (us) by oppressive systems that do not serve our basic human needs.
I respect your comments, knowledge and experience, Georgina, despite other commenters' attempt to discredit you and make it mostly about themselves, it seems. I'd say, even though I'm not a therapist, and it's my opinion, of course, that much of human sexuality has an element of trauma in it, including "normal" heterosexuality, because of the attitudes of our society towards sexuality. I don't think same-sex attraction must be trauma-based, on its face, even if the initial experience was linked to trauma. Maybe that's what you meant by correlation. That wouldn't make a person L, G, or B, but it would link their sexual expression to trauma, same as for a straight person. But trans-identity is not same-sex attraction. I'm not confused, but some people are and they seem to need to bully others because of it. And Josh Slocum obviously doesn't like women, no matter what he may claim to the contrary.
Thanks so much for getting it. So much of this conundrum is because there are so many ways everyone's sexuality and expression of that sexuality is distorted and fucked up by so many complex and politically useful ways of dehumanizing and dividing us as human beings. So helpful to those who wish to divide and conquer. It's taken me this many years to begin to understand listening instead of righteous reacting and then to see that sometimes that listening is not enough to make it different for folks like Josh. Doesn't make me give up, but still breaks my heart.
Hello again, Georgina, and thanks for your reply. I agree with what you say, and am sorry you were given a hard time here from some people. Someone once told me it's like being a lightning rod, because you actually do see where people are coming from and some people don't like that. You can attract their resentment, if that makes sense. Even though I don't know you, you seem like a really good person and a good therapist. It can be a big challenge to deal with difficult people, especially online, in forums like this, I would think. Josh needs to help himself, before anyone can help him (again, my opinion), but your attitude is kind whereas I tend to be ready to confront, maybe a bit too ready, having had this experience before and given up. I'm not too many years behind your 72 years young -- we've got a lot of good years ahead of us, I think! Hoping all the best for you. May we meet again in future comments ❤️🕊️😊(that second emoji is a peace dove -- can be hard to tell when they're so small!)
I've read the entirety of your comments. I know what you wrote. I do not misunderstand you. At 72 years of age, you haven't developed the emotional capacity to tolerate discussion that hits your sore spots.
Don't lecture me about the rights you fought for "for me," madam. It's typical lesbian feminist self-aggrandizement. I've been listening to that my entire life.
You don't know what made me gay and what didn't. You forget yourself.
Thank you dearie for your well grounded assessment of my capacities and intentions. Your words are no different than the attacks and shut down of discussion made by other ideologues. Sorry if my attempt to provide a bit of context for my comments offended and disturbed you enough to want to insult me... What a legacy.
Thank you for your astute and thoughtful analysis, expertise and emphasis on the need to separate same-sex attraction from transgender identification. This distinction is critical if we are to expose the TQ cult for its misogyny and homophobia.
Thanks for understanding this crucial point. Sometimes I feel like a voice crying out in the wilderness in the work I do and can no longer count on community support. :(
You would have more if you didn't antagonize the members of your own team. The thread about same sex attraction is interesting, and though you and I are arguing in another section I am interested in your opinions. I do understand that for you the topic is personal and provokes a strong reaction.
The strong emotional response to this topic has very little to do with me personally, despite the bits of my life that I share to lend some credibility to what I am writing i.e. not just talking out my ass. There is very little place for nuance or soft edges in these types of forums. In my experience, it's a bit of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Antagonism is in the eye of the beholder, filtered through whatever lens of experience each person views the world through. I say strong things that some might find offensive without my intending them to be so. They are not meant as personal attacks but I have no control over how they land. I'm sorry you read me as antagonistic and also grateful that you find my opinions interesting. I try to hold all the contradictions that come from living on the boundary without demonizing anyone and it has often led to being misunderstood. I'm not in this world to please people and make everyone feel cozy. The world is on fire and I have my way of sounding the alarm. I agree it's not everyone's way and I have much to learn.
During the first months of the lockdown in 2020 I frequently visited the detrans site on Reddit as an observer. I read many personal accounts, mostly by young adults, in the process of figuring out why they had believed they were trans but no longer did. Not all of them had insight yet, because they were newly detransitioned and struggled to separate their true feelings from the transgender ideology they previously believed in.
But certain themes stood out. The two most common were (a) the realization that they were actually gay and had transitioned in order to avoid those feelings, or (b) early childhood sexual abuse that resulted in self-loathing and shame towards their sexed bodies and the desire to acquire a sense of safety by becoming the opposite sex.
This shouldn't be controversial. For instance, the link between homosexuality and childhood sexual abuse is well established. It would be silly to believe, as apparently these leftists do, that childhood sexual trauma *wouldn't* lead to various forms of paraphilia
There is no such "evidence" and sexual orientation is not a paraphilia as your comment suggests. Posts need to be vetted for accuracy. This is pure bullshit.
I think what needs to happen is that people are allowed to say things you disagree with without a call for "posts to be vetted." Very woke, very "misinformation."
I'm gay. I can handle discussions that poke at the possible causes of homosexuality.
I, too, see the (factual, not opinion) numerical correlation between homosexuality and early childhood abuse. No, not just outright, direct sexual molestation. I mean emotional abuse, or physical abuse, or both.
No one sexually molested me. Yet my story---growing up with a mother with Borderline personality disorder, no father, and only a violent stepfather--is a common one among gay men. The correlation is real.
If I can handle hearing this and talking about it without calling for moral condemnation and censorship, I think that other adults are able to do that as well.
So agree. Nothing more toxic to the psyche than the borderline parent. Many are quite threatened by an honest appraisal of the issues. That itself deserves a separate look. Defense mechanisms are powerful. People react normally to abnormal situations.
The astounding leaps in logic when a child experiences a same sex attraction, or experiences angst about their developing bodies, when this may be a normal part of human development. Assuming a child who identifies as transgender is actually gay is one of those leaps. Just like assuming a tomboy has gender dysphoria or assuming a male with more effeminate traits is gay. It may or may not be the case. Just because something occurs doesn’t make it healthy or desirable. Imposing this on the young psyche is cruel and illogical. But it’s clearly not about logic.
Celebrating what may be a reaction to painful beginnings and then blaming the high incidence of mental health disturbance on society at large is (interestingly) a tool of the borderline.
Not excusing abusers with borderline personality disorder, but we all have a personal history, including them. But they need to be kept away from children, yet society at large says "Go ahead, have children, it's your right as an adult." Then once the child's been abused, society at large says "Time to step in and protect the child," though by then it's probably too late. So, "society at large," how do you separate that from individual experiences and personal behavior and values? They're all connected. They all feed off each other. If a society at large is emotionally unhealthy, as ours is, in my opinion, it will foster social and emotional illnesses, including borderline, narcissism, and transgenderism, among many others.
It is great that you are open to exploring the topic and comfortable about it. I have gay siblings and am not "anti gay", but that doesn't negate the question of what causes SSA, an interesting topic and one that bears relevance to other questions about family dynamics.
All I can contribute is what I was told by a house guest some years ago. It’s anecdotal but real where the rubber meets the road.She was a nightclub singer w/ her own band & evidently did quite well. She said she became a momma/big sister figure to young men for some reason. They trusted her & sought her counsel. So many were gay & troubled.... even angry. She said every single one who identified himself as gay & opened up to her had been molested at some point before he became gay. Most dealt w/ deep anger towards their molester.
Bottom line: her experience in talking to these young gay men the common denominator was past sexual molestation. No, she wasn’t a psychologist or psychiatrist- just a lady with a caring soul that seemed safe to these troubled young guys.
I could go on about her counsel helping them release that crippling anger but this post is long enough. Suffice to say holding anger hurts the angry person more than it bothers the person one is angry at.
One 2019 study which lumps sexual orientation (LGB) within the current alphabet soup of trans/queer, does not make for meaningful data. This study is flawed in terms of making your argument. As a trauma therapist, I am well aware of ACE studies in general and their value in providing context for understanding current difficulties people are struggling with and the behaviours they have evolved as coping mechanisms, largely in unconscious ways. But again, influence /correlation/ link does not mean cause. And sexual orientation, which also includes heterosexuals, in case you didn't know, is not a paraphilia. ;)
Aside from questions of whether you or Georgina is correct (don't know), please do keep posting. Creates healthy dialogue when a variety of opinions are offered.
You are prejudiced. What are you doing here, other than to spread false and inflammatory information? Georgina St. Claire is right, that sexual orientation is not a paraphilia. You are homophobic and have found some sub-par study to try to bolster your agenda. Your agenda will fall on deaf ears here. Why don't you take a hike?
I think what bothers me, based on your review as I haven't read or watched this, is that someone in a sheltered old-fashioned community wouldn't have the idea of trans, nor would there be community support for someone pretending to be another gender. Mute - absolutely, people can do that all on their own. But trans - as a concept, requires fore-knowledge in a lot of ways. And for the community to have fore-knowledge. Anyone who watched "What is a Woman" and saw the reaction of the tribe that was isolated and still living traditionally, might recall that the men laugh at the idea of someone believing they're in the wrong body. While it's plausible to imagine someone saying "I wish I was a man so this couldn't happen to me" - it's implausible that they'd come to the conclusion that they actually are a man OR that the community would reinforce that idea even if they did.
The director is just wearing this community as a skin suit, pretending to sympathize with the women in it while using them as a vehicle to make the points she wishes to make.
Cross-dressing, or pretending to be the opposite gender by dressing up as an opposite gender doesn't mean that a person think they actually are an opposite gender. In case of Melvin, her decision to look and dress up as a man was most likely a coping mechanism and a tool of self-defense. "I wish I was a man so this couldn't happen to me" became "If THEY think I'm a man they'll don't do it to me."
Trans contradicts the Bible and I can't see a way to insert it in such conservative structure. This kid would be trapped anywhere in her parents or her husband house and forced to behave.
I feel like this movie was better for fans of fhe author, I found it so boring. I kept hoping they’d leave the barn and turned it off half way thru. Maybe I was missing something but was expecting more for a big awards winner.
As someone who experienced something similar to Melvin, and after healing felt happy and safe in my body I am so happy I had one true friend to question the gender cult shit. I was 21-23 and had older ppl convincing me the reason I felt out of my body was because I was “a man” so far as to (I am large breasted) encourage me to seek too surgery.
I wish people got help, because the DSM before was right- it is a mental illness/symptom.
I hope others open their eyes soon
I'm late to this party and haven't read the many, many comments on this thread, but I have both watched the film and read the book. I thought the film was really powerful, but I did take note of the line "Melvin has always been a boy" spoken in the film. It seemed discordant in this story of women dealing with the trauma of the betrayal and drugging and rapes committed by some men in the community. It would make sense, that after a rape, a young woman in her trauma would distance herself from her sexuality. But saying Melvin was always a boy did nothing to support the story line. I was intrigued enough to read the book and discovered that "Melvin was always a boy" was not part of the story. I concluded that the line was added to the screen play to support the trans agenda. Too bad.
There is no such thing as Trans. You can not change your biological sex.
I think that those who say they are trans have either suffered from a horrible trauma and are creating a personality to get away from it, or they are rebelling against the status quo.
In the 60's, it was the hippie culture.
In the 70's, it was the rockers.
In the 80s, it was heavy metal grunge and goth.
In the 90s, it was the original LGB movement.
Now it's trans.
It's also Marxist propaganda and the pharma corps wanting to create lifelong customers.
You nailed it.
I suspect my daughter was affected by multiple traumas in childhood: abandonment by birth mother, one year in an eastern European orphanage, adoption/change of country/change of language/change of caregivers, a disfiguring facial birthmark and unwanted pointing and comments from peers about it, sudden unexpected death of her beloved (adoptive) grandmother, moving with adoptive family from one country to another at age 10. Add to that the likelihood she is gay while also having absorbed homophobic attitudes, and then genderbread-type lessons in fancy international schools . . . She had it all, and sure enough at 15 she came out as "trans" together with her best girlfriend.
I’m sorry to hear that, it’s so disheartening when one feels fractured it’s easy for cult ideology in your developmental years to slide in and provide “comfort”
I'm late to the party and see that there has been a lot of heated discussion. My comment goes back to the film. As mother of a trans-identifying teenaged male, I found it really sad that the women deemed all post-pubescent boys irredeemable and wouldn't let them leave with the women. I think one reason why boys transition is because they've been hammered with the message that it's creepy to desire girls, and even creepier to act on their desires. They are afraid of rejection and ridicule and of being seen as a threat. My boy was gentle and sensitive. He couldn't compete with alpha males, so perhaps transition was the only path he saw for himself.
I feel the same way about my son. We live in Australia where it is a culture of footy (rugby) and a 'man-up' mentality. A sensitive, gentle, artistic boy has it tough here, even in this day and age. My son tried to fit into the culture but it wasn't him. I do wonder if becoming a female felt more normal for him because he could finally express himself in his gentle, soft, and empathic manner, without feeling like a 'failure' of a male. (All those traits are human traits, not solely female or male but sadly, our society deems them as feminine).
That is sad, alright. And I think you are correct about boys who attempt to change sex. You might enjoy reading this, if you have not already:
https://quillette.com/2021/04/02/when-sons-become-daughters-parents-of-transitioning-boys-speak-out-on-their-own-suffering/
I'm sorry Dan. My comment was not intended for you as I know you weren't parading anything around nor was I accusing you of that. I wasn't suggesting anyone should take a hike. My suggestion of another forum was simply to say that the whole "same-sex as a paraphilia discussion" might better be taken up on another forum devoted to those topics. I understood this site as something quite different, though given much of the comments I've received, I'm beginning to wonder.
My early comment about vetting was very specifically about facts and not opinions. As a free speech advocate, I would never suggest that. However, I do believe stating opinions as fact only serves to muddy the waters and distract from the main event, the greater battle as you say. I certainly don't see you as an enemy and in truth, there are very few people in this world that fall into that category for me. Sorry for whatever confusion and misunderstanding my words provoked. :)
Using the real experiences of women in a particular community in South America as a platform for gender ideology agitprop: there is nothing at which trans activists and allies will balk. Sorry to learn Sarah Polley is so soulless.
Maybe she just hasn't thought enough about it.
A study? So what. There are decades of studies that determined sexual preference is inborn. You have a degree? Again, so what.
Nowhere did I deny the correlation. I stated that a correlation is not the same thing as a cause.
If we were actually having a person to person conversation, I'd show why that particular study is not set up to prove what you suggest is a cause. That's all. I mention my experience because it has some relevance to the discussion, not as a oneupmanship ploy. Notice, in fact, I made no mention of degrees as academic qualifications are hardly my benchmark of truth or fact! WPATH and all the professionals signed up on their platform, provide ample evidence of that. Without being cynical, my motto since I was a child, has been "Question Everything!" and then dig deeper. Enjoy your day.
The strong correlation about childhood trauma and sexual abuse with gender dysphoria was known before the trans cult took over the science and ideology and dismissed after the cult started preying on children and vulnerable youths. @DETRANSAQUA is a victim of sexual abuse who, instead of psychological therapy she needed to overcome her trauma was indoctrinated into believing she must transitioning to a man. She and several other girls are now suing their doctors for the irreversible harm done to them. For the sake of others, they must win and ASAP.
·
Totally agree. Your analysis makes complete sense. Well done.x
The same is true for homosexuality. Homosexuality was redefined as a normal variation based on incidence rather than, in many cases, a reaction to trauma. If there was no trauma then there is no need for intervention, nothing to see here. In fact, a majority of women who identify as gay are victims of childhood sexual abuse. Gay men also often identify a sexual experience as a child with an adult male that set the course. It’s not coincidental that there are higher rates of Autism and mental health disorders among the ranks of younger transsexuals. Nor is it coincidental that adult males who become sexually aroused dressing in women’s clothes lead the charge of normalizing trans identities. These pervs are sacrificing the young & vulnerable to protect this normalizing of their (formerly considered) pathological sexual jollies.
Conversion therapy laws block any effort to unlock antecedents or trauma. There’s something terribly wrong with a system that forces the embrace of an identity borne of trauma, and then by law, force all counselors to go along.
It is amusing to see people freak out at this comment though. Lol Truth is hard to hear sometimes.
Well said
No, the same is NOT true for homosexuality and I have no idea what you are basing this statement on. Your conflation of LGB (sexual orientations) with transgender ideology re: trauma and abuse is false and dangerous. Trauma does not cause actual sexual attraction, though it may indeed contribute to not wanting to have sex with a member of the opposite sex. There's a huge difference between causation and influence. If, in fact, a sexual abuse history caused women to be sexually attracted to other women, there would be a hell of a lot more lesbians in this world! I say this as a 72 year old lesbian who has been a feminist psychotherapist for 34 years working with trauma survivors of all sexual orientations and both sexes. I was also a grassroots activist in the early LGB struggles here in Nova Scotia and have never stopped studying the complex issues that impact our lives as humans in general, and individually. That is why I am now fighting to protect children and other vulnerable people from the dangerous contagion of transgender ideology and all that follows from it. Please reconsider your above opinion.
Yes, there is in fact some truth in what that commenter says.
It's not just direct sexual molestation, either. It's "normal" domestic child abuse, emotional and or physical. The correlation is real. It's not universal, but it's obvious, it's documented, and it's far higher than the background population.
I'm a gay man (and yes, this describes my experience, and yes, I believe it had some effect on my homosexuality) who can handle hearing this. Why can't you?
Josh, thank you for weighing in on this conversation. I respect your viewpoint and admire you for your candid substack commentary on Disaffected. I have been a paid subscriber for a year now and have learned so much.
Clearly you have not read the entirety of my comments. Nowhere have I said the "correlation" is not real. Having an effect on our lives is not the same thing as saying it is a cause of same-sex attraction. It didn't make you gay, but it certainly has a great effect on how you feel about yourself as a gay man in this culture. The experiences you describe, which are far more prevalent and "normalized" than most people realize, have a tremendous effect on most folks regardless of sexual orientation.
Please be careful about assuming anything about me. If I had trouble hearing this information, as you seem to think, I would never have spent much of my life as an out lesbian fighting for the rights you now have as a gay man. Nor would I have spent the past 35 years as a therapist working with LGB and straight people suffering the effects of intergenerational trauma and many other atrocities inflicted upon them (us) by oppressive systems that do not serve our basic human needs.
I respect your comments, knowledge and experience, Georgina, despite other commenters' attempt to discredit you and make it mostly about themselves, it seems. I'd say, even though I'm not a therapist, and it's my opinion, of course, that much of human sexuality has an element of trauma in it, including "normal" heterosexuality, because of the attitudes of our society towards sexuality. I don't think same-sex attraction must be trauma-based, on its face, even if the initial experience was linked to trauma. Maybe that's what you meant by correlation. That wouldn't make a person L, G, or B, but it would link their sexual expression to trauma, same as for a straight person. But trans-identity is not same-sex attraction. I'm not confused, but some people are and they seem to need to bully others because of it. And Josh Slocum obviously doesn't like women, no matter what he may claim to the contrary.
Dear Mildred,
Thanks so much for getting it. So much of this conundrum is because there are so many ways everyone's sexuality and expression of that sexuality is distorted and fucked up by so many complex and politically useful ways of dehumanizing and dividing us as human beings. So helpful to those who wish to divide and conquer. It's taken me this many years to begin to understand listening instead of righteous reacting and then to see that sometimes that listening is not enough to make it different for folks like Josh. Doesn't make me give up, but still breaks my heart.
Hello again, Georgina, and thanks for your reply. I agree with what you say, and am sorry you were given a hard time here from some people. Someone once told me it's like being a lightning rod, because you actually do see where people are coming from and some people don't like that. You can attract their resentment, if that makes sense. Even though I don't know you, you seem like a really good person and a good therapist. It can be a big challenge to deal with difficult people, especially online, in forums like this, I would think. Josh needs to help himself, before anyone can help him (again, my opinion), but your attitude is kind whereas I tend to be ready to confront, maybe a bit too ready, having had this experience before and given up. I'm not too many years behind your 72 years young -- we've got a lot of good years ahead of us, I think! Hoping all the best for you. May we meet again in future comments ❤️🕊️😊(that second emoji is a peace dove -- can be hard to tell when they're so small!)
I've read the entirety of your comments. I know what you wrote. I do not misunderstand you. At 72 years of age, you haven't developed the emotional capacity to tolerate discussion that hits your sore spots.
Don't lecture me about the rights you fought for "for me," madam. It's typical lesbian feminist self-aggrandizement. I've been listening to that my entire life.
You don't know what made me gay and what didn't. You forget yourself.
Thank you dearie for your well grounded assessment of my capacities and intentions. Your words are no different than the attacks and shut down of discussion made by other ideologues. Sorry if my attempt to provide a bit of context for my comments offended and disturbed you enough to want to insult me... What a legacy.
Cluck, cluck, cluck. Mute.
Thank you for your astute and thoughtful analysis, expertise and emphasis on the need to separate same-sex attraction from transgender identification. This distinction is critical if we are to expose the TQ cult for its misogyny and homophobia.
Thanks for understanding this crucial point. Sometimes I feel like a voice crying out in the wilderness in the work I do and can no longer count on community support. :(
You would have more if you didn't antagonize the members of your own team. The thread about same sex attraction is interesting, and though you and I are arguing in another section I am interested in your opinions. I do understand that for you the topic is personal and provokes a strong reaction.
The strong emotional response to this topic has very little to do with me personally, despite the bits of my life that I share to lend some credibility to what I am writing i.e. not just talking out my ass. There is very little place for nuance or soft edges in these types of forums. In my experience, it's a bit of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Antagonism is in the eye of the beholder, filtered through whatever lens of experience each person views the world through. I say strong things that some might find offensive without my intending them to be so. They are not meant as personal attacks but I have no control over how they land. I'm sorry you read me as antagonistic and also grateful that you find my opinions interesting. I try to hold all the contradictions that come from living on the boundary without demonizing anyone and it has often led to being misunderstood. I'm not in this world to please people and make everyone feel cozy. The world is on fire and I have my way of sounding the alarm. I agree it's not everyone's way and I have much to learn.
During the first months of the lockdown in 2020 I frequently visited the detrans site on Reddit as an observer. I read many personal accounts, mostly by young adults, in the process of figuring out why they had believed they were trans but no longer did. Not all of them had insight yet, because they were newly detransitioned and struggled to separate their true feelings from the transgender ideology they previously believed in.
But certain themes stood out. The two most common were (a) the realization that they were actually gay and had transitioned in order to avoid those feelings, or (b) early childhood sexual abuse that resulted in self-loathing and shame towards their sexed bodies and the desire to acquire a sense of safety by becoming the opposite sex.
This shouldn't be controversial. For instance, the link between homosexuality and childhood sexual abuse is well established. It would be silly to believe, as apparently these leftists do, that childhood sexual trauma *wouldn't* lead to various forms of paraphilia
There is no such "evidence" and sexual orientation is not a paraphilia as your comment suggests. Posts need to be vetted for accuracy. This is pure bullshit.
I think what needs to happen is that people are allowed to say things you disagree with without a call for "posts to be vetted." Very woke, very "misinformation."
I'm gay. I can handle discussions that poke at the possible causes of homosexuality.
I, too, see the (factual, not opinion) numerical correlation between homosexuality and early childhood abuse. No, not just outright, direct sexual molestation. I mean emotional abuse, or physical abuse, or both.
No one sexually molested me. Yet my story---growing up with a mother with Borderline personality disorder, no father, and only a violent stepfather--is a common one among gay men. The correlation is real.
If I can handle hearing this and talking about it without calling for moral condemnation and censorship, I think that other adults are able to do that as well.
So agree. Nothing more toxic to the psyche than the borderline parent. Many are quite threatened by an honest appraisal of the issues. That itself deserves a separate look. Defense mechanisms are powerful. People react normally to abnormal situations.
The astounding leaps in logic when a child experiences a same sex attraction, or experiences angst about their developing bodies, when this may be a normal part of human development. Assuming a child who identifies as transgender is actually gay is one of those leaps. Just like assuming a tomboy has gender dysphoria or assuming a male with more effeminate traits is gay. It may or may not be the case. Just because something occurs doesn’t make it healthy or desirable. Imposing this on the young psyche is cruel and illogical. But it’s clearly not about logic.
Celebrating what may be a reaction to painful beginnings and then blaming the high incidence of mental health disturbance on society at large is (interestingly) a tool of the borderline.
Not excusing abusers with borderline personality disorder, but we all have a personal history, including them. But they need to be kept away from children, yet society at large says "Go ahead, have children, it's your right as an adult." Then once the child's been abused, society at large says "Time to step in and protect the child," though by then it's probably too late. So, "society at large," how do you separate that from individual experiences and personal behavior and values? They're all connected. They all feed off each other. If a society at large is emotionally unhealthy, as ours is, in my opinion, it will foster social and emotional illnesses, including borderline, narcissism, and transgenderism, among many others.
It is great that you are open to exploring the topic and comfortable about it. I have gay siblings and am not "anti gay", but that doesn't negate the question of what causes SSA, an interesting topic and one that bears relevance to other questions about family dynamics.
https://news.vumc.org/2022/02/24/study-finds-lgbq-people-report-higher-rates-of-adverse-childhood-experiences-than-straight-people-worse-mental-health-as-adults/
All I can contribute is what I was told by a house guest some years ago. It’s anecdotal but real where the rubber meets the road.She was a nightclub singer w/ her own band & evidently did quite well. She said she became a momma/big sister figure to young men for some reason. They trusted her & sought her counsel. So many were gay & troubled.... even angry. She said every single one who identified himself as gay & opened up to her had been molested at some point before he became gay. Most dealt w/ deep anger towards their molester.
Bottom line: her experience in talking to these young gay men the common denominator was past sexual molestation. No, she wasn’t a psychologist or psychiatrist- just a lady with a caring soul that seemed safe to these troubled young guys.
I could go on about her counsel helping them release that crippling anger but this post is long enough. Suffice to say holding anger hurts the angry person more than it bothers the person one is angry at.
One 2019 study which lumps sexual orientation (LGB) within the current alphabet soup of trans/queer, does not make for meaningful data. This study is flawed in terms of making your argument. As a trauma therapist, I am well aware of ACE studies in general and their value in providing context for understanding current difficulties people are struggling with and the behaviours they have evolved as coping mechanisms, largely in unconscious ways. But again, influence /correlation/ link does not mean cause. And sexual orientation, which also includes heterosexuals, in case you didn't know, is not a paraphilia. ;)
"You know, there's a correlation between x and y"
"There's no such correlation!"
"Here's a study"
"The study is flawed. Also, I have a degree"
Every time
Exactly 😄
Yep.
Aside from questions of whether you or Georgina is correct (don't know), please do keep posting. Creates healthy dialogue when a variety of opinions are offered.
You are prejudiced. What are you doing here, other than to spread false and inflammatory information? Georgina St. Claire is right, that sexual orientation is not a paraphilia. You are homophobic and have found some sub-par study to try to bolster your agenda. Your agenda will fall on deaf ears here. Why don't you take a hike?
Why do you believe you have the right to call for moral condemnation , and to throw epithets, at people who say things you disagree with?
Samiz is certainly entitled to make his argument, and I for one do not want a comments section where only "approved" opinions are welcome.
I think what bothers me, based on your review as I haven't read or watched this, is that someone in a sheltered old-fashioned community wouldn't have the idea of trans, nor would there be community support for someone pretending to be another gender. Mute - absolutely, people can do that all on their own. But trans - as a concept, requires fore-knowledge in a lot of ways. And for the community to have fore-knowledge. Anyone who watched "What is a Woman" and saw the reaction of the tribe that was isolated and still living traditionally, might recall that the men laugh at the idea of someone believing they're in the wrong body. While it's plausible to imagine someone saying "I wish I was a man so this couldn't happen to me" - it's implausible that they'd come to the conclusion that they actually are a man OR that the community would reinforce that idea even if they did.
The director is just wearing this community as a skin suit, pretending to sympathize with the women in it while using them as a vehicle to make the points she wishes to make.
Cross-dressing, or pretending to be the opposite gender by dressing up as an opposite gender doesn't mean that a person think they actually are an opposite gender. In case of Melvin, her decision to look and dress up as a man was most likely a coping mechanism and a tool of self-defense. "I wish I was a man so this couldn't happen to me" became "If THEY think I'm a man they'll don't do it to me."
Trans contradicts the Bible and I can't see a way to insert it in such conservative structure. This kid would be trapped anywhere in her parents or her husband house and forced to behave.